A motion calling for the removal of clubs’ second-string teams from the top tiers of Munster hockey will be a hotly-debated issue at the AGM of the Munster Branch of the Irish Hockey Association (MBIHA) at Garryduff tomorrow night (7.30pm).
Six clubs – Ashton, Catholic Institute, Fermoy, UCC, Mallow and Galway – are co-proposing the motion, which has been implemented twice in the past 20 years (most recently in 2000/01) only to be scrapped after a season or two.
However, the clubs are this time calling for the proposal to be implemented until the 2013/14 season at least, seemingly in the hope of encouraging second-team players at the dominant clubs of Cork Harlequins and Cork Church of Ireland to move to other clubs to result in a better spread of talent and make the men’s Division One in particular more competitive.
C of I salute their fans following last weekend's Irish Junior Cup success after becoming the only Munster side to win a trophy at national or interprovincial level this term. Picture: Adrian Boehm
But the motion is likely to be met with strong opposition from the top two, who could argue that they should not be punished for producing good players and that such a measure would compromise their ambitions on the national stage.
There may also be fears that if players do not disperse around the clubs, the lower divisions would have a lopsided look about them due to the comparative strength of the teams dropping down.
While the sextet are calling for this measure to be implemented in time for next season, they have also proposed that the same criteria apply to Division Two from the 2010/11 season.
Further proposals of note include two from the Munster Hockey Umpires Association (MHUA), the first of which suggest that all clubs appoint an umpire co-ordinator “who will act as a singular contact between the club and the MHUA”.
The body also suggests that clubs could annually nominate 5% of its registered playing membership who are not already recognised umpires to partake in coaching courses and development programmes to widen the umpiring base.
A motion from Cork C of I’s ladies calls for cup final venues to be chosen in advance of the competitions being started, while Clonmel have suggested that nomination lists should be made publicly available the branch website.
Full details of proposed motions, voting rights and officers reports have been circulated to the relevant club members and officers. For more on the happenings at the MBIHA AGM tomorrow night, please check back on Friday.
Post Author:
alangood
30 Replies to “Second-team debate to resurface at AGM”
I don’t believe that all is right with Munster Hockey but I do not believe that this proposal will fix anything. I believe that it will result in more uncompetitive matches which will result in people leaving the sport – both from the winning & losing teams. It may result in a few extra transfers but I don’t believe that the loss of club loyalty is necessarily a good thing – especially where years of youth development is expended.
Some figures to watch:
1: Number of players: there have been approx 500 mens players in Munster for the last decade or so.
2: The spread of players: They currently play for 10 clubs in 27 teams in three divisions (7 in div 1, 8 in div 2 & 11 in div 3).
3: Number of transfers: There were 11 transfers between Munster clubs this season. 4: % of non-competitive matches: This season 39% of division 1 related matches were won by 5 goals or more compared with 18% in div2 & 29% in div 3 . The previous season when there was a split div3 & div4, the equivalent figures were 35%, 13% & 13%.
I believe that div 2 is the most competitive and thus the most enjoyable league to play in. No-one likes losing heavily and it gets tiresome winning heavily (after a while).
If part a of the proposal (no B teams in div 1) is passed, two strong sides will be parachuted into division 2, causing the issues seen in division 1 to be replicated.
If part b of the proposal (no C teams in div 2 in 2010/11) is passed, then division 3 gets dumped on and Hockey throughout the divisions gets less competitive and thus less enjoyable.
I believe that the solution belongs in the development of youth (progressing nicely in many clubs), the provision and attendance at coaching sessions by club players (not widespread in clubs where it should be) and the provision of competitive Hockey for all (Div 1 has problems with the top 2 teams _currently_ being far ahead of the rest but divs 2, 3a & 3b are almost OK).
I would suggest that this divisive motion (especially part b) be withdrawn and representatives of all mens clubs sit down to work out how to address the issues whilst keeping Hockey in Munster enjoyable.
I was wondering how long it would take for this debate to start again!!
It may be 10 seasons too late but i feel it needs to happen for the good of munster hockey in the long run. It works for Leinster and Ulster and players do move clubs to find first team hockey. Some seconds teams would be better than first teams in these provinces too. But it works. Its not a quick fix.
I do agree with the above statement also. Of course we need to invest in youth development and clubs will continue to do so.
Another incentive to move might be the introduction of a limit on the number of players a club can have on the munster underage and senior teams. This might not work at u 16 and maybe u 18 but at u21 and senior level it should. At this stage players should know if they will be involved in the first team week in week out. For example if you limited the number to 5 from any one club, only 5 from CI and 5 from Quins can make the munster squad. Therefore this will encourage players not making the 5 to move to another club in order to represent their provence. The munster team may suffer for a few years but the league could benefit. They do this in schoolboy soccer in cork and it makes for far more even spread of players.
Problem is that the “big two” provide the best service by a long shot: pub, 2 pitches, clubhouse, hall, car park, great coaches, equipment, among other things…..
I also feel for real change to happen we need the branch to be made up of no more than 2 members from each club. Its the munster branch not the quins and ci branch. That is not their fault though, others need to step up.
We need change.
:’-(
Can’t wait for the cricket scores in division one if this i passed!!!
What a complete and utter joke….
That is the stupidest idea ever about limiting players from each club.Its not Ci’s or Quins fault players want to join them and they have developed quality players over the years so why should they suffer in having players to leave.Young players who have any drive and want to succeed will join Ci or Quins.Ci have the best pitch in Ireland so why wouldnt top players want to join there.The reason there is a better than standard of league hockey in Leinster is because they have more people playing and there is also more schools playing.Looking at Ci and Quisn 2nds if they have to drop down a division.Do you see the older players like Trevor Dunne or Derek Hales moving?No?The younger players on Ci 2nds won’t leave either because they will soon be drafted on the first team squad.
Having seen a couple of games in Cork this year I think the big 2 could become a big 1. Saw IHL game in Quins and Garryduff on the same day and was struck by the difference in the size of the crowd, the age profile of the teams and the difference in the amount of kids at the games. For the greater good of irish hockey something does need to be done to ensure greater competition in Munster. I am not sure people with a club allegiance will definitely move clubs though.
Well, well, well. What an interesting debate at the Branch AGM. Part A of motion 1 was defeated by a single vote, 16 to 15, with two abstensions, so the principle of the change won broad support. With part A failing to get majority support, part B and motion 2 were withdrawn.
The motion may be lost but the big two clubs have heard a clear message that the present structure of the league is not sustainable.
Whatever disappointment I feel that the motion was not passed is tempered by the fact that there was so much support for change. This will give the Fixtures Committee the reassurance to work as best they can within the existing rules, to address the issue of the imbalance.
The desired effect of limiting clubs to one team in Div 1 would not be to have players switching clubs. Rather it would be that most players would stay with the clubs that developed them from underage level.
16 v 15, wow……..
It shows a serious divide in munster hockey……
What is the point in dropping Ci 2nds and Quins 2nds down a division?There just going to hammer everyone in division two then.It is completely pointless.The problem will just start in division two then.If they do drop these two teams down a division teams like Ashton and Galway are gonig to get a hiding by the big two.That is no fun for them and it is pointless for Ci and Quins.
To suggest that CI and Quins are getting players who developed in other local clubs is false, Who are these young players developed by Ashton, that have moved to the bigger clubs?
The reality is that 11 of the 27 teams in the munster mens hockey leagues are from Ci and Quins. Is it CI and Quins fault that they have so many teams? The desired effect of such a rule would result in more people in CI and Quins giving up hockey,
making the number of teams playing in the munster league less.
The proposal in itself was very divisive, and ill thought out. It seemed to me that small clubs are trying to blame CI and Quins for being successfull in developing
hockey from an early age.
Development of hockey doesn’t happen overnight and it is up to the smaller clubs
to put structures in place to develop their own talent, not to penalise clubs who are successfull
to be fair i dont see your point dave, most of the decent players being developed are being produced in the big 2 clubs and to be fair bandon produce some very good players and to the best of my knowledge most of them stay with their clubs, i cant think of any players that ashton or belvedere, etc have produced that have moved on recently……
According to Mr. McCarthy, the proposal won broad support. It got 15 votes mainly from smaller clubs, including ladies only club. Why a ladies only club would take a view on a mens hockey issue is in my opinion wrong. This vote, if it had gone through would have had absolutely no effect on these ladies only clubs but would have had a detrimental affect on mens hockey in Munster for the foreseeable future.
Also, how this proposal is beneficial to Galway and Catholic Institute is beyond me.
Are they expecting to lose developing players to CI and Quins. Thankfully common sence prevailed.
Anon#11 & #12: Just to point out that two very promising Ashton youngsters have moved to Harlequins over the last couple of seasons.
This is the situation that Dave is working to stop and we all should stand by him.
There is no point in the big two taking players who have been developed by smaller clubs. Somehow we have to be able to protect against that and allow the smaller clubs to benefit from their development, be successful, gather more players and climb the tables – not just lose their players.
As pointed out above, I do not think that the AGM proposal was the right way to achieve that but hopefully as proposed last night, a cross-club (club rep or fixtures driven) forum can come up with appropriate changes which have support to be implemented and we can get to a situation where we will have four full divisions with competitive Hockey.
dermot who are these ashton players that moved to quins id like to know?
Anon 15, this is a really useful debate but it is not fair to bring names into it. The clubs know very well who they are. Would knowing their names change your mind?
Anon 13, Galway, Catholic Institute and Limerick are indeed protected from the imbalance in the province by their distance from Cork. It is a measure of their commitment to the sport that they care so much about this issue. Regarding your point about the ladies clubs, you have to take the long view to undetstand why they have a stake in this debate. Ask Cobh and Mallow if they are better or worse off after their men’s sections folded.
Anon 12, Harlequins have seen the biggest gain from our underage section over the years. Many of those players whom we brought into the game and developed from age 12 or 13 (mostly attracting them away from soccer but some from other sports) went first to UCC, and then on to Quins, a fact which disguises the full extent of the traffic up to Farmers Cross. That traffic has picked up again which reflects the fresh impetus we brought to boys training which we expanded in season 2001-2002, starting with 7 year olds. As those youngsters are now starting to play club hockey for us, we want to hang onto our investment. Who could criticise us for that?
Well to answer post 15 I do know that David McCarthy’s son is one player who moved from Ashton to Quinns this season. I presume this is one of the reasons he put his motion forward.
sounds a bit like the spl if you ask me. its not up to ci or quins to change something ie dropping teams to division 2 but for the smaller clubs to change something
It’s not up to the smaller clubs to changes things on their own. It’s not possible. For the good of hockey in Munster it has to be an all club agreement on the way forward.
I listened with interest to the Debate at last Thursday’s night’s AGM. The gravity of the discussions outweighed the emotive comments which surfaced occassionaly.
However the relevance of the debate regarding the “future of Munster Hockey was submerged in the “importance of Division 1 Hockey”.
It was obvious that all recognised that change was required and that change will bring a period of “pain and possible imbalance”.
Perhaps it might be worth looking at an extended Division 1 and 2 and the elimination of Division 3 to reflect the current varied standards in the Branch Leagues.Such changes would require some innovation in structure etc., but that would be a challenge for a working committee to address.
Before there is an other onslaught of “the cricket score” syndrome, it may be worth noting that in the current Division 1 here are huge gaps in the fixtures due to IHL commitments by the top 2 coupled with an odd number of teams (7). An additional intake of 5 teams on an invitational basis may create something new and eliminate the “Division 1 exclusivity” that seems to blind all other thinking in this debate.
Nothing is perfect but if it was it would be boring !!
Possible solution as a stepping stone would be the following in Munsters Top Division:
10 teams in div 1:
8 of: Ashton, Bandon, C of I, Galway, Midleton, Harlequins, UCC, Belvedere, Cath Inst, Limerick (playoff to decide the initial 3 clubs to be added out of Ashton, Galway, Midleton, Belvo, Limerick)
2 of: second teams (C of I II, Quins II to start)…….
Each team plays each other once (9 games each)
Once these games are played then the league splits in 2…….. Each team then has 4 games (or you cud do home and away and make it 8)……..
At the moment Div 1 is 12 games per team, this would make it 13 (or 17)…….. However, i’m sure stricter conditions on fixtures could be imposed…….
Each club will offer top division hockey (except 1 each year) allowing for faster development and possible player movement………
The lowest placed team is relegated or put in a playoff with the 1st team in Div 2……
You could also introduce a ruling allowing only 2 seconds teams in Div 1…….. A playoff with the top 2nd team in Div 2 and bottom Div 1 second team could happen each year……..
Div 2 and Div 3 could divided the other teams…….. Same system could be applied in time……..
Don’t know why I didn’t think of this at the agm.. Allow teams other than CofI and Quins to operate similar to divisional sides in Cork GAA. For the uninitiated, it works as follows: Teams other than CofI and Quins are given “divisional senior” status in Div 1 which allows players from “intermediate” teams in Div 2 and 3 to play for them and still play for their intermediate team/club.
Example, top players from Midelton could nominate to “play senior” with Belvedere or Bandon etc in Div 1 so they get games at that standard but can also still play for their local or family club at whatever standard they are at.
This would allows the combined strength of talent to flow between the second-tier (i.e. struggling) clubs with a view to being more competitve, without flowing out of their boyhood club permanently. Another example, Limerick and Galway could feed into Catholic Institute 1sts while still playing Div 2 and 3 matches with their own clubs.
This is the system in Cork GAA where if you are a talented hurler playing with an intermediate team such as Cobh GAA you can play senior level with Imokilly while still turning out for your local club. It stops players leaving for bigger clubs and ending up with the situation we have. Its also the approach adopted by the IRFU for the Heineken Cup, entering provinces rather than clubs who wouldn’t have been able to compete with the big boys (sound familiar, hockey folk?).
Over time the “divisional senior” teams can change and Limerick may replace Cath. Inst. etc as happens with intermediate teams replacing senior teams in the GAA ranks on a yearly basis.
Players who are in college who are with lower Quins and Cof I teams could play for UCC in Div 1 and still turn out for the clubs that trained them all these years in Div 2 and 3 if they wanted.
And it can be in place for next season. Just call an EGM and approve the “nomination” process and you’re ready to go. No need to change teams in leagues or anything disruptive.
In answer to CofI’s questions at the AGM: where will our teams play (i.e. what leagues) next year? Answer: wherever they currently are, no change. What are we (CofI) to do with the pitch we spent €1m on? Answer: get it watered, it may actually host more than one competitive match next season!
Allotted times for Div 1 games would need to be agreed so they dont clash with Div 2 and 3 games involving “divisional” players, but that was already suggested to promote attendances at Div 1.
Go on, reader, stop looking for holes in the plan. It ain’t half bad… Get behind it and lets have a bit of craic putting it up to the big boys for next season.. Even if it isnt a huge revolution, its better than more of the same and would create a bit of buzz during the summer..
fairplay graham this actually sounds like a plausible solution to the problem in munster hockey.
@Bird
Like that idea especially as it’s been tested elsewhere and found to be successful.
Players cannot play in the league for one club and then for another in a different league. Ultimately when you get down to it the Munster 1st division is a qualifying league for the EHL. You can only play for one CLUB in a league in hockey.
Plus what would happen if Quins or C of I have a lot of cry off’s or as planned the Senior men and International team are training they will want these players back to play for the club.
I can just see in these times both clubs wanting to see the possible loss of revenue for the players that go or is it proposed they play two fees.
The other point is both clubs carry a squad of 25 for for the AIL so the clubs will be getting 3rd XI players.
The GAA can do it as they get a huge amount of cash, have low fees and lots of members. Plus loads of quality coaches, managers etc
Has anyone considered the fact that with only 500 men playing may it is a fact that with the numbers shrinking that only maybe a maximum of 5 teams is all that can be sustained.
Even in Leinster they have a top 4 and then the rest and they have loads of players but their numbers are probably dropping in some clubs.
Ulster has always been that way and the numbers playing the game is shrinking, so the players are polarising to the bigger clubs once again.
Hockey is a numbers game and to get quality clubs you need numbers playing, it probably needs to be trebled before the number of clubs will expand. 10 years ago Munster was relatively strong because the numbers playing the game was high.
Hockey is shrinking in schools, plus it did not have the high drop out level from the social players as it now does.
So spreading a thin layer of players over a lot of clubs is not ideal. I am not sure what the solution and it is good to see some constructive debate, but personally i would rather it waited until the people set up to look at the problem meet.
The trenches could be drawn before they even get to discuss the matter
I see the idea but not sure if its practicle, if C of I or Quinss have a run in the IJC and so do UCC who gets the players
cmon bandon!!!!!!!!!!
@ Bird – i think given the fact munster hasn’t the numbers that this isn’t workable. It also shouldn’t be the case that guys have to play 2 games every weekend. Burnout, injuries and time to name a few of the problems….
@comment 25 – as far as i am aware with the introduction of the development officer, kids hockey and in particular boys participation is being developed. it takes time and i agree this is an area that has been neglected in the past.
@ graham c – i actually think this is the best idea i’ve heard in a long time. as it is CI and Quins firsts are beating every team by a large number of goals. Over time the gap between the other clubs will close if the development continues. Kids want to play in the top division and if they have the opportunity at their club maybe they won’t move. If in a year or 2 it isn’t working for a club then they can drop down but it is surely worth a try.
The problem with a low number of men players starts at the primary school age when up to 7 schools in Cork alone play hockey but most of these players with the exception of St. Lukes Douglas lose there players to others sports. last year at the u16 and u18 interpors 9 of both starting 11 came from St. Lukes school Douglas ( witha year size of approx. 25 kids half of which are girls). These kids from primary are lost to the sport unless they go to Bandon, Midleton or Ashton as clubs do not do enough to keep and coach these kids and hence their skill levels drop and they leave the sport. Mens hockey needs to focus outside the three secondarys to up the numbers as I agree it is a numbers game to improve the quality of the mens game and hence the enjoyment for all.
I think one point made by comment 25
C of I have to nominate 25 for the IHL, if you have a chance to play IHL you will not play for another club.
If my son or daughter was good enough i would want them to go to the club with the best coach and have that chance to play in IHL which at the moment is Quins and Cof I.
The unfortunate fact is that Quins and C of I do not have enough real strength in depth to win the AIL but if their base is made even weaker, the rest of Ireland would be glad to get rid of them and play the AIOL without them.
Without the AIL i think hockey in Munster would be in a worse state as many players would be off to Dublin to play and leave the area.
Munster needs to spend a lot of money on coaching at club level, especially a 1 st XI standard and along with a youth policy they will eventually keep the players and develop.
I read that the International Olympic committie want the number of matches that U18 players play in a week reduced, and the total including training, school and club is 4.
Point 28 – just to correct you one a couple of your points – there are 26 primary schools taking part in Tricks 4 Sticks this year in Bandon, Clon, Fermoy, Midleton, Cobh and Cork city (Douglas, Monkstown, Carraigaline, Bishopstown, Ballincollig, Mayfield and the Glen). This follows from 20 primary schools who took part last year, mostly mixed schools. This has given nearly 350 new to hockey kids the opportunity to pick up a stick and there are clubs in all of the areas these schools are in. All of our clubs have reported increases in their numbers from the programme and to be fair many clubs have excellent junior sections, as good as, if not better than some of the bigger clubs and I have witnessed this first hand.
Some of the kids, particularly those who have played other sports like hurling, are excellent hockey players as the skills transfer, just look at Eugene Magee. I agree that we need to find ways of keeping these kids in our sport, more competition and good coaching will definetely help and clubs in Munster are making huge strides in offering long-term alternatives to GAA, rugby and soccer. I would say give it a few years and then have a look at the make-up of the 16s and 18s and I think you’d be surprised to see which primary schools the players originated from.
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I don’t believe that all is right with Munster Hockey but I do not believe that this proposal will fix anything. I believe that it will result in more uncompetitive matches which will result in people leaving the sport – both from the winning & losing teams. It may result in a few extra transfers but I don’t believe that the loss of club loyalty is necessarily a good thing – especially where years of youth development is expended.
Some figures to watch:
1: Number of players: there have been approx 500 mens players in Munster for the last decade or so.
2: The spread of players: They currently play for 10 clubs in 27 teams in three divisions (7 in div 1, 8 in div 2 & 11 in div 3).
3: Number of transfers: There were 11 transfers between Munster clubs this season. 4: % of non-competitive matches: This season 39% of division 1 related matches were won by 5 goals or more compared with 18% in div2 & 29% in div 3 . The previous season when there was a split div3 & div4, the equivalent figures were 35%, 13% & 13%.
I believe that div 2 is the most competitive and thus the most enjoyable league to play in. No-one likes losing heavily and it gets tiresome winning heavily (after a while).
If part a of the proposal (no B teams in div 1) is passed, two strong sides will be parachuted into division 2, causing the issues seen in division 1 to be replicated.
If part b of the proposal (no C teams in div 2 in 2010/11) is passed, then division 3 gets dumped on and Hockey throughout the divisions gets less competitive and thus less enjoyable.
I believe that the solution belongs in the development of youth (progressing nicely in many clubs), the provision and attendance at coaching sessions by club players (not widespread in clubs where it should be) and the provision of competitive Hockey for all (Div 1 has problems with the top 2 teams _currently_ being far ahead of the rest but divs 2, 3a & 3b are almost OK).
I would suggest that this divisive motion (especially part b) be withdrawn and representatives of all mens clubs sit down to work out how to address the issues whilst keeping Hockey in Munster enjoyable.
I was wondering how long it would take for this debate to start again!!
It may be 10 seasons too late but i feel it needs to happen for the good of munster hockey in the long run. It works for Leinster and Ulster and players do move clubs to find first team hockey. Some seconds teams would be better than first teams in these provinces too. But it works. Its not a quick fix.
I do agree with the above statement also. Of course we need to invest in youth development and clubs will continue to do so.
Another incentive to move might be the introduction of a limit on the number of players a club can have on the munster underage and senior teams. This might not work at u 16 and maybe u 18 but at u21 and senior level it should. At this stage players should know if they will be involved in the first team week in week out. For example if you limited the number to 5 from any one club, only 5 from CI and 5 from Quins can make the munster squad. Therefore this will encourage players not making the 5 to move to another club in order to represent their provence. The munster team may suffer for a few years but the league could benefit. They do this in schoolboy soccer in cork and it makes for far more even spread of players.
Problem is that the “big two” provide the best service by a long shot: pub, 2 pitches, clubhouse, hall, car park, great coaches, equipment, among other things…..
I also feel for real change to happen we need the branch to be made up of no more than 2 members from each club. Its the munster branch not the quins and ci branch. That is not their fault though, others need to step up.
We need change.
:’-(
Can’t wait for the cricket scores in division one if this i passed!!!
What a complete and utter joke….
That is the stupidest idea ever about limiting players from each club.Its not Ci’s or Quins fault players want to join them and they have developed quality players over the years so why should they suffer in having players to leave.Young players who have any drive and want to succeed will join Ci or Quins.Ci have the best pitch in Ireland so why wouldnt top players want to join there.The reason there is a better than standard of league hockey in Leinster is because they have more people playing and there is also more schools playing.Looking at Ci and Quisn 2nds if they have to drop down a division.Do you see the older players like Trevor Dunne or Derek Hales moving?No?The younger players on Ci 2nds won’t leave either because they will soon be drafted on the first team squad.
Having seen a couple of games in Cork this year I think the big 2 could become a big 1. Saw IHL game in Quins and Garryduff on the same day and was struck by the difference in the size of the crowd, the age profile of the teams and the difference in the amount of kids at the games. For the greater good of irish hockey something does need to be done to ensure greater competition in Munster. I am not sure people with a club allegiance will definitely move clubs though.
Well, well, well. What an interesting debate at the Branch AGM. Part A of motion 1 was defeated by a single vote, 16 to 15, with two abstensions, so the principle of the change won broad support. With part A failing to get majority support, part B and motion 2 were withdrawn.
The motion may be lost but the big two clubs have heard a clear message that the present structure of the league is not sustainable.
Whatever disappointment I feel that the motion was not passed is tempered by the fact that there was so much support for change. This will give the Fixtures Committee the reassurance to work as best they can within the existing rules, to address the issue of the imbalance.
The desired effect of limiting clubs to one team in Div 1 would not be to have players switching clubs. Rather it would be that most players would stay with the clubs that developed them from underage level.
16 v 15, wow……..
It shows a serious divide in munster hockey……
What is the point in dropping Ci 2nds and Quins 2nds down a division?There just going to hammer everyone in division two then.It is completely pointless.The problem will just start in division two then.If they do drop these two teams down a division teams like Ashton and Galway are gonig to get a hiding by the big two.That is no fun for them and it is pointless for Ci and Quins.
To suggest that CI and Quins are getting players who developed in other local clubs is false, Who are these young players developed by Ashton, that have moved to the bigger clubs?
The reality is that 11 of the 27 teams in the munster mens hockey leagues are from Ci and Quins. Is it CI and Quins fault that they have so many teams? The desired effect of such a rule would result in more people in CI and Quins giving up hockey,
making the number of teams playing in the munster league less.
The proposal in itself was very divisive, and ill thought out. It seemed to me that small clubs are trying to blame CI and Quins for being successfull in developing
hockey from an early age.
Development of hockey doesn’t happen overnight and it is up to the smaller clubs
to put structures in place to develop their own talent, not to penalise clubs who are successfull
to be fair i dont see your point dave, most of the decent players being developed are being produced in the big 2 clubs and to be fair bandon produce some very good players and to the best of my knowledge most of them stay with their clubs, i cant think of any players that ashton or belvedere, etc have produced that have moved on recently……
According to Mr. McCarthy, the proposal won broad support. It got 15 votes mainly from smaller clubs, including ladies only club. Why a ladies only club would take a view on a mens hockey issue is in my opinion wrong. This vote, if it had gone through would have had absolutely no effect on these ladies only clubs but would have had a detrimental affect on mens hockey in Munster for the foreseeable future.
Also, how this proposal is beneficial to Galway and Catholic Institute is beyond me.
Are they expecting to lose developing players to CI and Quins. Thankfully common sence prevailed.
Anon#11 & #12: Just to point out that two very promising Ashton youngsters have moved to Harlequins over the last couple of seasons.
This is the situation that Dave is working to stop and we all should stand by him.
There is no point in the big two taking players who have been developed by smaller clubs. Somehow we have to be able to protect against that and allow the smaller clubs to benefit from their development, be successful, gather more players and climb the tables – not just lose their players.
As pointed out above, I do not think that the AGM proposal was the right way to achieve that but hopefully as proposed last night, a cross-club (club rep or fixtures driven) forum can come up with appropriate changes which have support to be implemented and we can get to a situation where we will have four full divisions with competitive Hockey.
dermot who are these ashton players that moved to quins id like to know?
Anon 15, this is a really useful debate but it is not fair to bring names into it. The clubs know very well who they are. Would knowing their names change your mind?
Anon 13, Galway, Catholic Institute and Limerick are indeed protected from the imbalance in the province by their distance from Cork. It is a measure of their commitment to the sport that they care so much about this issue. Regarding your point about the ladies clubs, you have to take the long view to undetstand why they have a stake in this debate. Ask Cobh and Mallow if they are better or worse off after their men’s sections folded.
Anon 12, Harlequins have seen the biggest gain from our underage section over the years. Many of those players whom we brought into the game and developed from age 12 or 13 (mostly attracting them away from soccer but some from other sports) went first to UCC, and then on to Quins, a fact which disguises the full extent of the traffic up to Farmers Cross. That traffic has picked up again which reflects the fresh impetus we brought to boys training which we expanded in season 2001-2002, starting with 7 year olds. As those youngsters are now starting to play club hockey for us, we want to hang onto our investment. Who could criticise us for that?
Well to answer post 15 I do know that David McCarthy’s son is one player who moved from Ashton to Quinns this season. I presume this is one of the reasons he put his motion forward.
sounds a bit like the spl if you ask me. its not up to ci or quins to change something ie dropping teams to division 2 but for the smaller clubs to change something
It’s not up to the smaller clubs to changes things on their own. It’s not possible. For the good of hockey in Munster it has to be an all club agreement on the way forward.
I listened with interest to the Debate at last Thursday’s night’s AGM. The gravity of the discussions outweighed the emotive comments which surfaced occassionaly.
However the relevance of the debate regarding the “future of Munster Hockey was submerged in the “importance of Division 1 Hockey”.
It was obvious that all recognised that change was required and that change will bring a period of “pain and possible imbalance”.
Perhaps it might be worth looking at an extended Division 1 and 2 and the elimination of Division 3 to reflect the current varied standards in the Branch Leagues.Such changes would require some innovation in structure etc., but that would be a challenge for a working committee to address.
Before there is an other onslaught of “the cricket score” syndrome, it may be worth noting that in the current Division 1 here are huge gaps in the fixtures due to IHL commitments by the top 2 coupled with an odd number of teams (7). An additional intake of 5 teams on an invitational basis may create something new and eliminate the “Division 1 exclusivity” that seems to blind all other thinking in this debate.
Nothing is perfect but if it was it would be boring !!
Possible solution as a stepping stone would be the following in Munsters Top Division:
10 teams in div 1:
8 of: Ashton, Bandon, C of I, Galway, Midleton, Harlequins, UCC, Belvedere, Cath Inst, Limerick (playoff to decide the initial 3 clubs to be added out of Ashton, Galway, Midleton, Belvo, Limerick)
2 of: second teams (C of I II, Quins II to start)…….
Each team plays each other once (9 games each)
Once these games are played then the league splits in 2…….. Each team then has 4 games (or you cud do home and away and make it 8)……..
At the moment Div 1 is 12 games per team, this would make it 13 (or 17)…….. However, i’m sure stricter conditions on fixtures could be imposed…….
Each club will offer top division hockey (except 1 each year) allowing for faster development and possible player movement………
The lowest placed team is relegated or put in a playoff with the 1st team in Div 2……
You could also introduce a ruling allowing only 2 seconds teams in Div 1…….. A playoff with the top 2nd team in Div 2 and bottom Div 1 second team could happen each year……..
Div 2 and Div 3 could divided the other teams…….. Same system could be applied in time……..
Don’t know why I didn’t think of this at the agm.. Allow teams other than CofI and Quins to operate similar to divisional sides in Cork GAA. For the uninitiated, it works as follows: Teams other than CofI and Quins are given “divisional senior” status in Div 1 which allows players from “intermediate” teams in Div 2 and 3 to play for them and still play for their intermediate team/club.
Example, top players from Midelton could nominate to “play senior” with Belvedere or Bandon etc in Div 1 so they get games at that standard but can also still play for their local or family club at whatever standard they are at.
This would allows the combined strength of talent to flow between the second-tier (i.e. struggling) clubs with a view to being more competitve, without flowing out of their boyhood club permanently. Another example, Limerick and Galway could feed into Catholic Institute 1sts while still playing Div 2 and 3 matches with their own clubs.
This is the system in Cork GAA where if you are a talented hurler playing with an intermediate team such as Cobh GAA you can play senior level with Imokilly while still turning out for your local club. It stops players leaving for bigger clubs and ending up with the situation we have. Its also the approach adopted by the IRFU for the Heineken Cup, entering provinces rather than clubs who wouldn’t have been able to compete with the big boys (sound familiar, hockey folk?).
Over time the “divisional senior” teams can change and Limerick may replace Cath. Inst. etc as happens with intermediate teams replacing senior teams in the GAA ranks on a yearly basis.
Players who are in college who are with lower Quins and Cof I teams could play for UCC in Div 1 and still turn out for the clubs that trained them all these years in Div 2 and 3 if they wanted.
And it can be in place for next season. Just call an EGM and approve the “nomination” process and you’re ready to go. No need to change teams in leagues or anything disruptive.
In answer to CofI’s questions at the AGM: where will our teams play (i.e. what leagues) next year? Answer: wherever they currently are, no change. What are we (CofI) to do with the pitch we spent €1m on? Answer: get it watered, it may actually host more than one competitive match next season!
Allotted times for Div 1 games would need to be agreed so they dont clash with Div 2 and 3 games involving “divisional” players, but that was already suggested to promote attendances at Div 1.
Go on, reader, stop looking for holes in the plan. It ain’t half bad… Get behind it and lets have a bit of craic putting it up to the big boys for next season.. Even if it isnt a huge revolution, its better than more of the same and would create a bit of buzz during the summer..
fairplay graham this actually sounds like a plausible solution to the problem in munster hockey.
@Bird
Like that idea especially as it’s been tested elsewhere and found to be successful.
Players cannot play in the league for one club and then for another in a different league. Ultimately when you get down to it the Munster 1st division is a qualifying league for the EHL. You can only play for one CLUB in a league in hockey.
Plus what would happen if Quins or C of I have a lot of cry off’s or as planned the Senior men and International team are training they will want these players back to play for the club.
I can just see in these times both clubs wanting to see the possible loss of revenue for the players that go or is it proposed they play two fees.
The other point is both clubs carry a squad of 25 for for the AIL so the clubs will be getting 3rd XI players.
The GAA can do it as they get a huge amount of cash, have low fees and lots of members. Plus loads of quality coaches, managers etc
Has anyone considered the fact that with only 500 men playing may it is a fact that with the numbers shrinking that only maybe a maximum of 5 teams is all that can be sustained.
Even in Leinster they have a top 4 and then the rest and they have loads of players but their numbers are probably dropping in some clubs.
Ulster has always been that way and the numbers playing the game is shrinking, so the players are polarising to the bigger clubs once again.
Hockey is a numbers game and to get quality clubs you need numbers playing, it probably needs to be trebled before the number of clubs will expand. 10 years ago Munster was relatively strong because the numbers playing the game was high.
Hockey is shrinking in schools, plus it did not have the high drop out level from the social players as it now does.
So spreading a thin layer of players over a lot of clubs is not ideal. I am not sure what the solution and it is good to see some constructive debate, but personally i would rather it waited until the people set up to look at the problem meet.
The trenches could be drawn before they even get to discuss the matter
I see the idea but not sure if its practicle, if C of I or Quinss have a run in the IJC and so do UCC who gets the players
cmon bandon!!!!!!!!!!
@ Bird – i think given the fact munster hasn’t the numbers that this isn’t workable. It also shouldn’t be the case that guys have to play 2 games every weekend. Burnout, injuries and time to name a few of the problems….
@comment 25 – as far as i am aware with the introduction of the development officer, kids hockey and in particular boys participation is being developed. it takes time and i agree this is an area that has been neglected in the past.
@ graham c – i actually think this is the best idea i’ve heard in a long time. as it is CI and Quins firsts are beating every team by a large number of goals. Over time the gap between the other clubs will close if the development continues. Kids want to play in the top division and if they have the opportunity at their club maybe they won’t move. If in a year or 2 it isn’t working for a club then they can drop down but it is surely worth a try.
The problem with a low number of men players starts at the primary school age when up to 7 schools in Cork alone play hockey but most of these players with the exception of St. Lukes Douglas lose there players to others sports. last year at the u16 and u18 interpors 9 of both starting 11 came from St. Lukes school Douglas ( witha year size of approx. 25 kids half of which are girls). These kids from primary are lost to the sport unless they go to Bandon, Midleton or Ashton as clubs do not do enough to keep and coach these kids and hence their skill levels drop and they leave the sport. Mens hockey needs to focus outside the three secondarys to up the numbers as I agree it is a numbers game to improve the quality of the mens game and hence the enjoyment for all.
I think one point made by comment 25
C of I have to nominate 25 for the IHL, if you have a chance to play IHL you will not play for another club.
If my son or daughter was good enough i would want them to go to the club with the best coach and have that chance to play in IHL which at the moment is Quins and Cof I.
The unfortunate fact is that Quins and C of I do not have enough real strength in depth to win the AIL but if their base is made even weaker, the rest of Ireland would be glad to get rid of them and play the AIOL without them.
Without the AIL i think hockey in Munster would be in a worse state as many players would be off to Dublin to play and leave the area.
Munster needs to spend a lot of money on coaching at club level, especially a 1 st XI standard and along with a youth policy they will eventually keep the players and develop.
I read that the International Olympic committie want the number of matches that U18 players play in a week reduced, and the total including training, school and club is 4.
Point 28 – just to correct you one a couple of your points – there are 26 primary schools taking part in Tricks 4 Sticks this year in Bandon, Clon, Fermoy, Midleton, Cobh and Cork city (Douglas, Monkstown, Carraigaline, Bishopstown, Ballincollig, Mayfield and the Glen). This follows from 20 primary schools who took part last year, mostly mixed schools. This has given nearly 350 new to hockey kids the opportunity to pick up a stick and there are clubs in all of the areas these schools are in. All of our clubs have reported increases in their numbers from the programme and to be fair many clubs have excellent junior sections, as good as, if not better than some of the bigger clubs and I have witnessed this first hand.
Some of the kids, particularly those who have played other sports like hurling, are excellent hockey players as the skills transfer, just look at Eugene Magee. I agree that we need to find ways of keeping these kids in our sport, more competition and good coaching will definetely help and clubs in Munster are making huge strides in offering long-term alternatives to GAA, rugby and soccer. I would say give it a few years and then have a look at the make-up of the 16s and 18s and I think you’d be surprised to see which primary schools the players originated from.