Belvedere drop to Division Two – but Institute stay put
Munster hockey has been dealt a significant blow after it was confirmed today that Belvedere’s men have voluntarily dropped out of the provincial top flight.
However, Catholic Institute have opted not to follow suit after a consensus was reached at a club committee meeting tonight that they remain in Division One of the Munster Senior Men’s League.
The Limerick outfit’s decision to stay put means the nightmare scenario of seeing the league contested between the first and second teams of Bandon, Cork Harlequins and Cork Church of Ireland has been avoided.
However, Ballincollig-based Belvedere’s absence from Division One will cause fixture headaches, with teams now facing free weekends and loss of revenue.
Munster Branch president John Rose told Southern Fried that the branch had granted Belvedere’s request to drop a division at a meeting on Monday night.
“We met with Belvedere last night, they asked us if their men’s team could drop a division as they try to consolidate their men’s section, and in the interests of hockey we said yes,” he explained. “Hopefully, they’ll take this step back to eventually take two or three steps forward.”
Both Belvedere and Limerick outfit Institute have shipped heavy defeats to the big guns of Quins and C of I in recent years in a severely unbalanced league. It was widely acknowledged that nobody benefited from these games, with the smaller outfits demoralised by occasional double-digit hammerings, while the big two’s national ambitions suffered with a lack of competitive hockey on their doorstep.
Belvedere won't have to endure double-digit hammerings from the likes of Cork Harlequins when they play in Division Two this season. Picture: Des Barry/Irish Examiner
Belvedere captain Paul Hayes said he believed men’s hockey at the club may have died a death had they stayed in Division One.
“It has probably been coming over the last couple of years – we’ve had dwindling resources on the player side, and in the last two years we’ve had a few people move away to Dublin and London,” he explained.
“It hasn’t been great. We were quite lucky over the past couple of years, scraping results in the last two or three games of the season to keep us up.
“We didnt think we had enough quality players to compete in the Division One, so we all took the decision to rally around and move down to the second division.
“It is very disappointing, but we had to take stock. If we had stuck it out and been beaten 12-0 or 14-0 every week, even by the second teams, I think men’s hockey in Belvedere would probably have ceased.”
Initially located in Tower, Belvedere was traditionally served by the Mayfield and Douglas community schools, both of which have long since ceased playing hockey.
The need for an astro-turf pitch prompted a move to Ballincollig, where they are attempting to foster hockey in Ballincollig Community School to secure the club’s future.
However, IHA western development officer Phil Oakley admitted it has been a slow process in an area where rugby is the current sport du jour.
“We’re trying our level best to get boys playing in the two schools, which is what Belvedere really needs,” he explained.
“The club’s biggest problem is that it used to be fed from the UCC men’s team, and that has just dried up; a lot of players don’t stay in Cork anymore.”
“It was a choice of dropping down a division or losing the club completely, and I think the branch has made the right decision. Now we need to focus on getting young guys playing.”
Oakley pointed to the example of Limerick HC, whose senior side entered at Division One level but folded within a couple of years.
He said the club has rebuilt from the bottom up with the help of dedicated volunteers, and comfortably won Division Three last year.
He added that to compete with other sports, hockey would benefit from the exposure of Ireland qualifying for a major championship.
“Look at the cricketers, they beat Pakistan and qualified for the Super Eights. After that, I saw kids out playing cricket with a hurley and three sticks in the ground. We were unlucky with the Olympic qualification this time around, but hopefully we can get to 2012 in London and the 2010 World Cup.”
Lack of player depth is an issue for all clubs in Munster bar the ‘big two’ and Bandon, who benefit from the hockey nurseries at Ashton and Bandon Grammar, and have established youth programmes.
Belvedere and Institute are now both likely to drop their second teams down a division, in order to blood young players in a less competitive arena.
According to John Rose, Belvedere’s plight highlights similar imbalances in schoolboy hockey. He believes the dominance of Bandon Grammar and Ashton – who joined the Leinster Senior Schools League in recent years in search of more competitive hockey – has had a knock-on effect at senior club level.
“There are probably several contributing factors [to clubs dropping divisions], but one of the main ones is that over the past five to seven years the schools development hasn’t been great,” he said.
“The advent of two Munster schools going to play in Leinster certainly didn’t help. It became a very unhealthy situation, insofar as the interest totaly diminished when Ashton and Bandon Grammar left.
“The onus is now on clubs to produce their own players [as a result], and the coaching at youth level by the clubs themselves is becoming more and more important.”
Indeed, a glance at the the current men’s Irish squad shows that all of the Munster representatives are products of both schools. David Hobbs, Mark Black, John Jermyn and Karl Burns are Ashton alumni, while twins Conor and David Harte and Jason Lynch won an All-Ireland Schools title with Bandon Grammar in 2004. It’s the same story with the last Munster interpro squad, selected minus internationals.
Even below elite level, the majority of decent schools players are members of Quins, Bandon or C of I, with a few playing for top clubs elsewhere when they move to university – Lynch is plying his trade with Lisnagarvey while at Queen’s University, Bandon graduate Patrick Shanahan has joined Three Rock Rovers and the Hartes are at Pembroke.
It leaves the likes of Belvedere scrapping around for players who can’t get into the first or second sides at Quins, Bandon and C of I. Meanwhile, Limerick’s lack of competitive schoolboys hockey means Institute must grow their own, only to see the best inevitably leave for greener pastures in Cork and Dublin.
Post Author:
alangood
8 Replies to “Belvedere drop to Division Two – but Institute stay put”
*Children in primary/secondary school are heavily influenced by what their peers are playing for example often schools have good years and bad years depending on who is in the year both academically and athletically, if a couple of influencial people play this encourages alot of their friends then play.
If hockey is quite small in the school and the coaching not great then interest diminishes as players don’t have anyone to aspire to and the numbers playing are small. A separate coaching programme could be organised where children from the different schools are trained over a number of weeks or throughout the year the location varying between the different schools.
Call it a Munster preassessment and organise the training sessions over several weeks or throughout the year to try and improve the standard of play and introduce players to their peers. This will encourage more of the better players to continue playing and hopefully increase hockeys popularity in the school. The current munster set up does this to an extent but only very few benefit and a disproportionate number go to the same schools and this system might catch more players who slip through the net due to the deficiencies in their schools coaching set up.
A standardised system including levels could be organised where players are put into coaching programmes based on how quickly they can complete a training exercise and the difficulty of the exercise, the exercises should be designed to require all the basic skills and a certain level of fitness. This will encourage players to practice and also give them something to aim for. It is often players who played for munster that continue to play and I think that some of the secondary reasons are important as well eg. meeting other good players and intensive training, as opposed to training with very few other people of similar age and the resulting non intensive training sessions found in many of the weaker hockey schools.
*Primary school hockey is very important. The secondary schools key feeder schools need to be looked at and introduced to hockey at a young age. If hockey is to be spread to different schools it needs to be done first through the primary schools so that the students want to play it. Could the Munster branch set up some sort of small sided game like indoor or “quick sticks” (see http://tinyurl.com/5hyhmw) and organise a munster wide competition for primary schools? Put the emphasis on skills and participation and teachers will support it. It could start small and then hopefully build in time. Initally concentrate on Limerick and Cork. Five primary schools in Limerick and five in cork is not an unrealistic initial start. I know the IHA is giving out sticks to some schools but there needs to be some form of competition in order for it to be successful. A flyer could be sent to lots of different schools and the teachers invited to an introduction session where they could learn the basics of hockey.
Clubs need to target a few local primary schools and try to get enough people playing from those schools so that they can enter a team in the primary schools competition this will encourage pupils who are already playing to try and enlist their friends as they will want to enter the competition and will need a certain minimum amount this effectively takes the initial responsibility out of teachers hands and hopefully will build up interest in the schools several teams could be organised in this way from the one school. Remember it is a childs peers have a very powerful influence and children like to be invited to participate in something. So often it is more effective to spread the game through the children rather than concentrating on the teachers many of whom might have only a passing interest.
*Advertising is very important in particular for the clubs if they want to attract young players to play. My local local club does not advertise prominently in shops and schools etc. This is very important as local people if invited are more likely to take their children down. For instance Catholic Institute is located in a very urban area and they should have enormous numbers of local players but they don’t this might be due to lack of advertising/open days etc.
There are a few of the ideas I’ve had after reading you’re very good report at this stage the only way is up!
I’ve heard that some of the Belvedere players have left and joined other clubs. This can’t be good for the future of men’s hockey in Belvedere or Munster.
Any transfer speculation in Munster hockey circles; there is talk that Paul Murray (Belvedere) & Stephen O’Keeffe (Pembroke) are both joining CofI. Any more news?
Let me say the last anon article should be read by the Munster Branch carefully and acted on
Well done
Its a sad sad time for hockey in Munster, its amazing how in 20 years Munster hockey has declined to a pitiful state. The rich get richer and the poor drop divisions. Unfortunately without some serious decisions been made at all levels this situation will only get worse. Div 1 will be worse off without Belvo and institute made a decision the other night which is commendable. But they will struggle. Where is the fun in that? Credit to CofI and Quins for raising the bar while everyone else stayed in a holding pattern for the last 10 years. Unfortunately, every decent young hockey player wants to play with either of those 2 clubs now. Limit Div 1 to 1sts only, de-centralise the major player pools in both CofI and Quins to other clubs. Ok I’ll hear the moans starting like ” Oh why should (The Big 2) we suffer because we have been sucessful?? But the upshot is a Div 1 with CofI, Quins, Belvo, Bandon, Institute, UCC, Galway, Midleton and Limerick could eventually be competitive. Players from 2nds and 3rds in the big two would need to move clubs to play Div 1, We have an RDO who could help witht he seeding efforts in all clubs then, look to the future: invest in youth hockey – Stabilise Div 1 – force some de-centralisation – it will benefit the WHOLE of Munster Hockey in the long term…just a few thoughts
In response the anon article, I like your ideas. In fact we ran a very successful programme called Tricks 4 Sticks last year, which included 21 primary schools (14 new to hockey) in the Cork city and Bandon areas, and was directly responsible for increasing Bandon’s underage numbers by 10%. Unfortunately other clubs did not use the programme as an opportunity to increase their numbers, although measures will be in place this year when the scheme is expanded for clubs to take advantage of the work being done. We are aiming for 30-40 schools this year.
In Limerick, we worked with 6 primary schools (4 new to hockey) and both Limerick HC and Catholic Institute benefited from the programme. It led to the first ever primary schools blitz in the city and should lead to a primary schools league this season. This is being discussed at a meeting next week.
Its important for people to realise that the major issues within Munster will not be fixed by one or two years of development work, but we will get there in time, especially if we can continue to increase the number of kids being exposed to the sport at primary school level and follow this up by offering those kids fun and enjoyable programmes within our clubs.
Phil, thanks a million for your input, it’s great to see someone from within the “powers that be” come on to the site and point out what’s being done on the ground. Open dialogue between the IHA, the MBIHA and club reps and the “ordinary” hockey people is always to be welcomed in my view.
I’ve already outlined some of my views on the topic of the development of hockey at schools level in another post, and it’s reassuring to know work is been done in primary schools in particular – much of it unseen, obviously. You might give me a shout to let me know the outcome of next week’s meeting so it can be reported here, if possible.
Regarding transfer speculation, I have heard both the rumours mentioned but as yet have no confirmation of either. I’ll be putting together a ‘movers and shakers’ piece closer to the beginning of the season – keep an eye out!
Thanks to all who have contributed so far, keep it up!
Al
In response to Phil and Alan,
I think it’s great that sites like this allow dialogue between the branch and the ordinary players. The work being done sounds fantastic and I really believe that work in the primary schools will be the most beneficial to the clubs and in the future allow for more boys secondary schools teams. Time passes quickly and if the fundamentals are right we should be able to watch the fruit of your labours slowly come to fruition.
You are of course completely right when you say that the problems will not be fixed in a year or two all that we can ask is to see things getting better and continue to get better at youth level. Instant solutions to long term problems are simply not possible.
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*Children in primary/secondary school are heavily influenced by what their peers are playing for example often schools have good years and bad years depending on who is in the year both academically and athletically, if a couple of influencial people play this encourages alot of their friends then play.
If hockey is quite small in the school and the coaching not great then interest diminishes as players don’t have anyone to aspire to and the numbers playing are small. A separate coaching programme could be organised where children from the different schools are trained over a number of weeks or throughout the year the location varying between the different schools.
Call it a Munster preassessment and organise the training sessions over several weeks or throughout the year to try and improve the standard of play and introduce players to their peers. This will encourage more of the better players to continue playing and hopefully increase hockeys popularity in the school. The current munster set up does this to an extent but only very few benefit and a disproportionate number go to the same schools and this system might catch more players who slip through the net due to the deficiencies in their schools coaching set up.
A standardised system including levels could be organised where players are put into coaching programmes based on how quickly they can complete a training exercise and the difficulty of the exercise, the exercises should be designed to require all the basic skills and a certain level of fitness. This will encourage players to practice and also give them something to aim for. It is often players who played for munster that continue to play and I think that some of the secondary reasons are important as well eg. meeting other good players and intensive training, as opposed to training with very few other people of similar age and the resulting non intensive training sessions found in many of the weaker hockey schools.
*Primary school hockey is very important. The secondary schools key feeder schools need to be looked at and introduced to hockey at a young age. If hockey is to be spread to different schools it needs to be done first through the primary schools so that the students want to play it. Could the Munster branch set up some sort of small sided game like indoor or “quick sticks” (see http://tinyurl.com/5hyhmw) and organise a munster wide competition for primary schools? Put the emphasis on skills and participation and teachers will support it. It could start small and then hopefully build in time. Initally concentrate on Limerick and Cork. Five primary schools in Limerick and five in cork is not an unrealistic initial start. I know the IHA is giving out sticks to some schools but there needs to be some form of competition in order for it to be successful. A flyer could be sent to lots of different schools and the teachers invited to an introduction session where they could learn the basics of hockey.
Clubs need to target a few local primary schools and try to get enough people playing from those schools so that they can enter a team in the primary schools competition this will encourage pupils who are already playing to try and enlist their friends as they will want to enter the competition and will need a certain minimum amount this effectively takes the initial responsibility out of teachers hands and hopefully will build up interest in the schools several teams could be organised in this way from the one school. Remember it is a childs peers have a very powerful influence and children like to be invited to participate in something. So often it is more effective to spread the game through the children rather than concentrating on the teachers many of whom might have only a passing interest.
*Advertising is very important in particular for the clubs if they want to attract young players to play. My local local club does not advertise prominently in shops and schools etc. This is very important as local people if invited are more likely to take their children down. For instance Catholic Institute is located in a very urban area and they should have enormous numbers of local players but they don’t this might be due to lack of advertising/open days etc.
There are a few of the ideas I’ve had after reading you’re very good report at this stage the only way is up!
I’ve heard that some of the Belvedere players have left and joined other clubs. This can’t be good for the future of men’s hockey in Belvedere or Munster.
Any transfer speculation in Munster hockey circles; there is talk that Paul Murray (Belvedere) & Stephen O’Keeffe (Pembroke) are both joining CofI. Any more news?
Let me say the last anon article should be read by the Munster Branch carefully and acted on
Well done
Its a sad sad time for hockey in Munster, its amazing how in 20 years Munster hockey has declined to a pitiful state. The rich get richer and the poor drop divisions. Unfortunately without some serious decisions been made at all levels this situation will only get worse. Div 1 will be worse off without Belvo and institute made a decision the other night which is commendable. But they will struggle. Where is the fun in that? Credit to CofI and Quins for raising the bar while everyone else stayed in a holding pattern for the last 10 years. Unfortunately, every decent young hockey player wants to play with either of those 2 clubs now. Limit Div 1 to 1sts only, de-centralise the major player pools in both CofI and Quins to other clubs. Ok I’ll hear the moans starting like ” Oh why should (The Big 2) we suffer because we have been sucessful?? But the upshot is a Div 1 with CofI, Quins, Belvo, Bandon, Institute, UCC, Galway, Midleton and Limerick could eventually be competitive. Players from 2nds and 3rds in the big two would need to move clubs to play Div 1, We have an RDO who could help witht he seeding efforts in all clubs then, look to the future: invest in youth hockey – Stabilise Div 1 – force some de-centralisation – it will benefit the WHOLE of Munster Hockey in the long term…just a few thoughts
In response the anon article, I like your ideas. In fact we ran a very successful programme called Tricks 4 Sticks last year, which included 21 primary schools (14 new to hockey) in the Cork city and Bandon areas, and was directly responsible for increasing Bandon’s underage numbers by 10%. Unfortunately other clubs did not use the programme as an opportunity to increase their numbers, although measures will be in place this year when the scheme is expanded for clubs to take advantage of the work being done. We are aiming for 30-40 schools this year.
In Limerick, we worked with 6 primary schools (4 new to hockey) and both Limerick HC and Catholic Institute benefited from the programme. It led to the first ever primary schools blitz in the city and should lead to a primary schools league this season. This is being discussed at a meeting next week.
Its important for people to realise that the major issues within Munster will not be fixed by one or two years of development work, but we will get there in time, especially if we can continue to increase the number of kids being exposed to the sport at primary school level and follow this up by offering those kids fun and enjoyable programmes within our clubs.
Phil, thanks a million for your input, it’s great to see someone from within the “powers that be” come on to the site and point out what’s being done on the ground. Open dialogue between the IHA, the MBIHA and club reps and the “ordinary” hockey people is always to be welcomed in my view.
I’ve already outlined some of my views on the topic of the development of hockey at schools level in another post, and it’s reassuring to know work is been done in primary schools in particular – much of it unseen, obviously. You might give me a shout to let me know the outcome of next week’s meeting so it can be reported here, if possible.
Regarding transfer speculation, I have heard both the rumours mentioned but as yet have no confirmation of either. I’ll be putting together a ‘movers and shakers’ piece closer to the beginning of the season – keep an eye out!
Thanks to all who have contributed so far, keep it up!
Al
In response to Phil and Alan,
I think it’s great that sites like this allow dialogue between the branch and the ordinary players. The work being done sounds fantastic and I really believe that work in the primary schools will be the most beneficial to the clubs and in the future allow for more boys secondary schools teams. Time passes quickly and if the fundamentals are right we should be able to watch the fruit of your labours slowly come to fruition.
You are of course completely right when you say that the problems will not be fixed in a year or two all that we can ask is to see things getting better and continue to get better at youth level. Instant solutions to long term problems are simply not possible.